Kalled - My concern is that his "regulative principle" can easily become the Pariseism that Jesus so soundly condemned and which ultimately resulted in His death. Think about - again and again the Pharisees tried to add extra measures of "righteousness" to their actions to make sure that they would not sin, keep the law and therefore please the Creator. Yet in doing so they became grossly distorted and ultimately crucified the very Messiah they were waiting for. I very much fear this spirit is quick to work in all of us who would impose our ethics on others, especially by using the sword (via the State) which, of course, Jesus soundly condems.<br><br>My focus is always to turn people to be open to Christ and submit themselves fully to Him via His Spirit. I cannot influence or control or condemn/condone a man/woman more or less and have no desire to do so. Each of us must "examine ourselves" (this is my admonition re: self reflection/self awareness - simply different language) and we will all stand before God. I myself will simply point to Christ because I cannot consider my own abilities and my failures are many and I most certainly would not even trust my own mind.<br><br>In Christ,<br>Greg
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Kyle<br>The body also reabsorbs unemitted sperm cells.<br>>>True; however, my focus is on the build up of semen in the prostate gland – there is no neat re-absorption there.<br><br>But, I've yet to encounter anything that says that nocturnal emissions simply do not occur in some people<br>>>The other guys can comment but I have probably had two in my 45 year life (despite not having ejaculated for some weeks at a time and being in QUITE great pain)</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I don't know what your specific medical situation may be, but there simply is not any medical concern with not masturbating. I quote from this webpage:<br><br><blockquote>Although there is nothing abnormal or unhealthy about masturbation from a medical point of view, some people have strong religious, cultural or moral objections to the practice. For those who hold these values, choosing not to masturbate is normal, too. There is nothing weird, odd, or unhealthy about this choice.</blockquote><br><br>In addition, here are a couple more links that discuss masturbation from Christian viewpoints:<br><br>1. "Masturbation among Male Christians" (PDF file)<br>2. Masturbation - Two Views<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]and certainly nothing that presents masturbation as a requirement for sexual health for anyone.<br>>>I think honest reflection of experience shows that ejaculation is a requirement regardless of how it is accomplished.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Ejaculation may be necessary, but masturbation is more than ejaculation.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Re: Fantasy<br>This is a little more difficult. However, fantasizing is not Lust. Lust means desire (the word has been perverted in our culture to mean sexual reaction or something like that – but that is not what Jesus meant). It is quite easy for one to choose not to desire his neighbor’s wife while masturbating (and not lusting after my neighbor’s wife is very easy!!)</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>We usually use "lust" in referrence to sinful sexual desire, though you are right, as it applies to any sinful desire. How you exclude sexual fantasy from lust I do not know, however.<br><br>EDIT: Fixed the links.
Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Wed Oct 29, 200312:52 AM.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Nice bit of homework. No problem with the statements by the American Pediatrics (albeit not gospel anymore than the Pope is - but good to begin reflection).<br><br>If you are comfortable without masturbating - very good (saves some time for other meaningful activities!). I just don't want certain poor young fellows going through great stress and condemation when they don't need to because they need to relieve themselves from time to time.<br><br>Greg
In reply to:If you are comfortable without masturbating - very good (saves some time for other meaningful activities!). I just don't want certain poor young fellows going through great stress and condemation when they don't need to because they need to relieve themselves from time to time.
When I read a comment like this it smacks of cheap grace. You've been encouraging those reading this thread to go ahead and indulge yourself if you like... God wants you to enjoy pleasure. I believe you've said "God has made you to have self-realization, self-fulfillment and enjoy who you are." That sounds more like Satan than Jesus to me. I have to admit it bothers me. Masturbation is sexual gratification through self-stimulation. I've never really done a study on this topic but I can't see how this can be pleasing to God.
I’ve been reading this thread and particularly your views about masturbation. I must admit I’m quite troubled by your position. I know the Bible doesn’t say anything as plain as “thou shall not masturbate” but I don’t think it approves of it, or agrees with your arguments.
I found an interesting write up on this topic by Lambert Dolphin which might be helpful to those who are looking for a more Biblical view. I haven't read every post in this thread so if he's already been quoted please excuse me for the duplication.
I know not everyone will take the time to read the entire article so I’ve copied some excerpts below:
To be more objective, the Bible is clear that sexual activity is always wrong outside of marriage. Yet today's society promotes, encourages, and teaches young people to explore their sexuality and to become active in early adolescence. Biblical values have been overwhelmed and cast aside in most all schools today with the result that a whole generation has becoming openly pagan and promiscuous. This tragic, terrible state of affairs is associated with a breakdown in family ties and widespread divorce. It is therefore very difficult for Christian men and women who are not yet married to stay clear of sexual experimentation, pornography, and peer pressure to get involved.
Claims that all forms of sexual expression are normal, healthy, natural, and desirable may be fraudulent and false, but they are widely accepted today. In this environment modesty, chastity, purity and celibacy are virtually never discussed---yet they are paramount values in a Biblical view of godliness and spirituality. The fact that masturbation is "encouraged" as normal and healthy by a majority of educators and secular leaders today definitely does not mean that the majority viewpoint is the correct one---the opposite is more likely to be true. In overcoming the excessively inhibited sexual mores of an early generation, the sexual revolution has obviously gone completely over board in the direction of total moral looseness, unrestrained hedonism and unbelievable promiscuity.
______________________
God did not design sex to be a solitary experience. It is supposed to be shared with another, and only in marriage. Sexuality is intended to be part of the complementary interaction of self-giving love between a man and a woman who are committed to one another for life. (See 1 Cor. 7:4 where the Bible states that husband and wife are to give up the right to their own bodies to one another in marriage). Within marriage the dynamic interplay between opposites can bring healing and wholeness for both the man and his wife. Sexual expression in any other context is destructive to wholeness. The Bible certainly shows that God is not against pleasure, He wants us to say "no" to things that hurt us.
Because sexual activity results in pleasure, sexual habits such as masturbation are become conditioned responses that are reinforced with repetition. In a society where instant gratification is the goal of many, few of our contemporaries think in terms of self-control or long term fulfillment. Unlike hunger or other purely physical desires, human sexual response encompasses body, soul, and spirit. Without food and water man can not live, but living without sexual expression does no harm and can often be of great benefit because it allows libidinal energy to be refocused into socially redeeming activities. Abstinence and celibacy have always been prized by the church as healthy and desirable before marriage, and normative for singles. In the personal experience of countless pastors and counselors in the church of Jesus Christ, men and women are always far better off if they remained sexually inactive until marriage, and faithful to one's spouse thereafter. Countless married couples regret their premarital affairs and sexual expression prior to marriage because the effects show up later on in making marriage less than it ought to be.
Sexual selfishness is more difficult to cure than a tendency to eat too much apple pie or roast beef and potatoes. Even if one were to decide that masturbation is not a specific sin named in the Bible that does not mean it is a neutral issue. In real life not all choices are between right and wrong, but often between degrees of good and better. We can surely say that overcoming masturbation is the better course to seek after. _______________________
Admittedly, sexual desires are most intense biologically speaking when we are young and not yet able to marry. The spiritual victory to be gained (with the help of the Lord Jesus) is one of self-control (1 Thess. 4:1-8) and an inner purity that constantly vitalizes one's intimate personal relationship with Jesus the Bridegroom of the church. The Song of Solomon gives us a good picture not only of marriage but also of our individual relationship with Jesus Christ seen as a discipleship of love (Ref 2). God is working in us to produce wholeness and well-roundedness, a self-giving life style not a self-centered one. Previous generations of Christian leaders taught that instinctual energies could be sublimated and rechanneled into productive and creative actions in the world. This concept has largely disappeared in our time when the focus is on self, self-realization, and self-fulfillment.
Christ--the Only Complete Realist
No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good. A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is. After all, you find out the strength of the German Army by fighting it, not by giving in. You find out the strength of the wind by trying to walk against it, not by lying down. A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yield to temptation, is the only man who knows to the full what temptation means-the only complete realist (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity). ___________________________
A number of passages in the New Testament are applicable to growing out of and overcoming masturbation as we seek single sightedness, with purity of heart and motive in following Jesus the Lord.
"Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness." (Rom. 6:13)
"...make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." (Heb.12:13,14)
"But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints...Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience...Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light." (Eph. 5:3-13)
"If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming." (Col. 3:1-6) ____________________________
Masturbation is usually not the crucial issue of anyone's Christian walk, though self-consciousness probably makes it seem so to some. God's loyal-love (hesed) is patiently committed to seeing to it that we become whole and fulfilled no matter how much extra grace we may think we need. Assuming that masturbation is indeed a sin for Christians, one would expect to find consequences, for "whatever a man sows that he shall also reap" (Galatians 6:7). Some suggested consequences include (a) increased self-consciousness, (b) lowered self-esteem, (c) depression, (d) reduced psychological and creative energy, (e) lessened interest in interpersonal relationships, and of course (f) guilt, shame, with fear of being found out.
Self realization and self fulfillment are friends to our flesh but enemies to the Spirit's work within us. May those reading this thread by God's grace come to realize self denial is more appropriate and can provide deliverence from the enslaving habit of masturbation.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Wes:<br><br>Excellent post. <br><br>One way to sum it up might be:<br><br>"The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace." and "The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh."<br><br>In Him,<br><br>Gerry<br><br>
Paul,<br><br>In all sincereity (sp?), since you believe people who masturbate should be put to death, will you be the first one to cast the stone?<br><br>Greg
To the other responders,<br><br>I appreciate the vigor of the discussion and certainly your heart to walk holy before the Creator - it is not in anyway in my heart and mind to do otherwise. <br><br>However, I believe most of what I have heard (e.g. Lamberts writing and others) is simply humanistic (derived from men's sinful reasonings) and thus resulting in a grossly distorted sexual ethic playing about in sheepskin (the Papists of course having been playing this one for almost 2 millenia) baaahing at the cross (but not really knowing of what they speak). The Pharisees likewise were fond of this sort of activity with all their washings, etc. However, as was well pointed out, there is no specific text that forbids masterbation. As one who adheres to the Word of God, here, then I also stop.<br><br>Agape,<br>Greg
In reply to:since you believe people who masturbate should be put to death, will you be the first one to cast the stone?
You are once again attempting to justify your own self-centered pleasure by twisting the clear teaching of the Holy Scripture. Your cavilling at the phrase "those who do such things deserve death" demonstrates your refusal to believe that ALL SIN DESERVES DEATH, for that phrase follows the Holy Spirit's catalog of DEATH-DESERVING SINS in Romans 1:18-31:
suppression of truth by wickedness refusal to glorify God refusal to thank God claiming to be wise while becoming foolish exchanging the glory of God for images sexual impurity degradation of bodies with one another exchanging the truth of God for a lie worshipping and serving created things not worshipping and serving the Creator exchanging natural relations for unnatural commission of indecent acts with the same gender inflammation with lust for one another not retaining the knowledge of God doing what ought not be done becoming filled with every kind of wickedness becoming filled with every kind of evil becoming filled with every kind of greed becoming filled with every kind of depravity becoming full of envy becoming full of murder becoming full of strife becoming full of deceit becoming full of malice being gossips being slanderers being God-haters being insolent being arrogant being boastful inventing ways of doing evil disobeying their parents being senseless being faithless being heartless being ruthless
Since all of these types of sins deserve death, yet only a portion of the catalog lists sins which are to punished by the sword, the phrase deserve death clearly refers to the outpouring of God's wrath upon ALL SIN, both temporally and eternally, rather than simply the God-ordained measures granted the civil authorities for certain extreme public crimes. As you have done with other passages brought to your attention in this thread, you have once again blatantly turned the Scripture on its head. Your question unjustly accuses me of calling for a civil execution. You alone know whether your intent was to draw attention away from your redefinition (calling evil good) of sexual immorality as a profitable pursuit--"did God really say?"--or whether you are simply so ignorant of the Word of God that you feel compelled to reject whatever you do not understand. Either way, your question deserves no answer.
What I pray will be profitable to you, Greg, is to look at the end of the passage you quoted, and believe Him who spoke it, and obey:
Paul,<br><br>Well said - I understand your point - you did not not make this context clear in your original answer. <br><br>It is interesting that in IJn 5, Jn specifically said there is some sin not unto death - interesting thought - perhaps that was your point re: the civil authorities only responding to certain sins with death?<br><br>My question, why do eat ice cream or chocolate? When you go to choose ice cream, why do you choose one flavor/kind over the other?<br><br>Greg
Greg,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]you did not not make this context clear in your original answer</font><hr></blockquote><p>The sequence went:<br><br>1) I had posted Romans 1:32, which contains the phrase "deserve death"<br>2) You quoted my post of Romans 1:32, which contains the phrase "deserve death", and then<br>3) You asked me whether a certain group "deserve death"<br>4) I then answered your question<br><br>How could I have been referring to anything other than Romans 1:32 and its context (1:18-31)? To allege otherwise, as you have now done twice, is baseless.<br><br>Of far greater concern to me, Greg, is that in your responses you continue to refuse to acknowledge that, due to the depravity of our wicked hearts, God is not obligated--though you have set yourself up as his judge in this matter--to delineate every possible manifestation of sin in order to justly condemn us. The term sexual immorality/impurity is clearly understood, as stated multiple times in this thread, as any sexual activity outside that positively ordained, namely, faithful marriage between one man and one woman.<br><br>Note also that all good things given for our pleasure and well-being--life, love, companionship, breath, food, drink, work, marriage, child-bearing, clothing, shelter, reading, music, transport, commerce, etc.--are all portrayed as good and necessary in the Word. Please instruct us all as to where in the Word this activity which has so ensnared you, is so positively delineated.
Human/Greg,<br><br>You have chosen a good name for how you have posted here on the Highway. Human logic and human reasoning are permeated in your expressed views. Unfortunately there is no value in discussing this further with you because you resist the truth and believe a lie.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>I believe most of what I have heard (e.g. Lamberts writing and others) is simply humanistic (derived from men's sinful reasonings) and thus resulting in a grossly distorted sexual ethic playing about in sheepskin (the Papists of course having been playing this one for almost 2 millenia) baaahing at the cross (but not really knowing of what they speak). The Pharisees likewise were fond of this sort of activity with all their washings, etc. However, as was well pointed out, there is no specific text that forbids masterbation. As one who adheres to the Word of God, here, then I also stop.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Lambert's writing and others show that Scripture doesn't play a very important part in your view and as for sinful reasoning... well that discribes your position well.<br><br>Since you have chosen to ignore what Scripture does have to say on this subject you are revealing that humanistic philosophy is your religion. Greg unfortunately you have lost your right to post on the Highway because you are breaking the rules.<br><br><br>The Staff<br><br>
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
