Hi Paul, <br><br>Very good question. God made us - we have likes/dislikes, reactions, approaches, etc. These can be developed unto Christ or perverted. But we must start by being real with and aware of who we are. As an example of the contrary, I fear the degradation of human emotion that I have heard in certain fundamental churches; this causes a distorted human being (since God created these very emotions to be fully experienced and understood by the experiencer). While we may not entirely get there - a little honesty and openness to who we are will help us make good decisions.<br><br>As we do so, we also engage in submission to Christ - this is where I believe the Holy Spirit works to make our very selves into Christ (Christ likeness if that is easier to hear). I do not need to talk about loving one another - I a simply that as I gain Christ - I do not need to talk about praising the Lord and all the other Christian-ease - I have become that as I continue to submit my being to the Lord. I believe this is what IICor3:18 is all about (as well as the entire plan of God for the individual).<br><br>Does this make a little sense?<br><br>Greg
Thank you for responding. Would you care to elaborate on how [color:red]"being real with and aware of who we are" should be understood in light of the following Biblical passages: [color:blue] "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
"For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean." (Mark 7:21-23)
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Just a thought - our bodies/minds need the cleansing of orgasm (that is why God created that functionality within us).</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>No one needs to masturbate to emit seminal fluid. Masturbation is no more than sexual self-gratification. It is not honoring to God.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Jerry White wrote a book that I have found both inspiring and challenging--Honesty, Morality and Conscience. I'd recommend this book to anyone as a good primer on developing a Christian ethic and conscience.<br><br>On this subject, he writes (pages 201-202 in my copy):<blockquote><br><br>"Yet the Bible does give guidelines which will allow you to decide if masturbation is sin for you. Consider these observations:<br><br>1. Recall the definition of sensuality and lust: 'gratification of the senses or the indulgence of appetite; devoted to or preoccupied with the senses" and "intense sexual desire". Masturbation definitely fits these definitions (see Galatians 5:19). Can you practice masturbation without indulging in sensuality or lust?<br><br>2. The next test is that of your thought life. Jesus said, 'I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart' (Matthew 5:28). When a person practices masturbation, what is in his or her mind? Can a person practice masturbation without imagining a sexual act or at least sensual pictures? How do you feel? If you practice masturbation, can your mind remain pure?<br><br>3. Next, consider the sanctity and intent of the sexual act in marriage. Without question, masturbation is an attempt to experience the same sensations meant to be experienced in marriage. It is a substitute for the real thing--a fake, a fabrication, and a deceit.<br><br>4. Also, masturbation is totally self-centered. One of the characteristics of self-centeredness is self-indulgence. Paul described the way of life of one controlled by Satan, saying, 'We too all formerly lived in the lusts of the flesh; indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind.' (Ephesians 2:3)<br><br>5. Finally, masturbation can put us in bondage. When a person is controlled by a fleshly indulgence, he sins. 'Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts.' (Romans 6:12) Paul also said, 'All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.' Are you in bondage to masturbation?" </blockquote><br><br>I would urge anyone to consider what Jerry White has written, because I think there is much wisdom here.<br><br>Theo
Please note that I responded to Paul privately since it seemed a little off topic (though not entirely irrelevant).<br><br>Kyle - Just curious - how are expecting a male to emit seminal fluid without either intercourse or masterbation and since most Christians are uncomfortable with single people having intercourse, that only leaves masterbation. Some people may find nocturnal emission a natural experience but I don't thing the average person does - I certainly dont.<br><br>I suppose masterbation can be sexual gratification - while I am not certain of the ethic of that, my main point is that masterbation can be simply physiological relase no different than urination except a different, albeit related physical system. To say that it is not honoring to God is merely your own opinion/ethic - which for yourself, I wholly support. However, I would be cautious regarding what I affirm is honoring/dishonoring to God outside of yourself when there are not clear Biblical statements - idolatry begins to rear its ugly head when we enter these uncharted waters.<br><br>re: Jerry White<br>I see a number of obvious fallacies in Jerry's reasoning as I believe any good exegete would see. My greatest concern is the imposition of a human/cultural ethic on other people (which appears to be Jerry's goal here) rather than the calling of people to Christ and the formation of Christ in us. This leads to great bondage and, I suspect, has hurt many a young man who struggles in an area which really does not need to be a struggle if thought through and submitted to the Lord.<br><br>Agape,<br>Greg
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Kyle - Just curious - how are expecting a male to emit seminal fluid without either intercourse or masterbation and since most Christians are uncomfortable with single people having intercourse, that only leaves masterbation. Some people may find nocturnal emission a natural experience but I don't thing the average person does - I certainly dont.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>The body also reabsorbs unemitted sperm cells. But, I've yet to encounter anything that says that nocturnal emissions simply do not occur in some people, and certainly nothing that presents masturbation as a requirement for sexual health for anyone. Please understand that I am not saying that I do not masturbate---I am weak in this area along with many men, but it's none the less something that is not pleasing to God.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I suppose masterbation can be sexual gratification - while I am not certain of the ethic of that, my main point is that masterbation can be simply physiological relase no different than urination except a different, albeit related physical system. To say that it is not honoring to God is merely your own opinion/ethic - which for yourself, I wholly support.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>In masturbation you necessarily touch yourself so as to achieve orgasm and emission thereby. How is this anything other than sexual self-gratification? Is it asexual or does it involve another person? Is it not gratifying?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]However, I would be cautious regarding what I affirm is honoring/dishonoring to God outside of yourself when there are not clear Biblical statements - idolatry begins to rear its ugly head when we enter these uncharted waters.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>There are clear biblical statements concerning lust, and I've yet to encounter any man who does not fantasize in some way while masturbating, except in hypotheticals. So, it's not exactly "uncharted waters."
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]My greatest concern is the imposition of a human/cultural ethic on other people (which appears to be Jerry's goal here) rather than the calling of people to Christ and the formation of Christ in us. This leads to great bondage and, I suspect, has hurt many a young man who struggles in an area which really does not need to be a struggle if thought through and submitted to the Lord.</font><hr></blockquote><p>I see what you are saying, but I disagree a bit. I have thought the issue through and I STILL come to the same conclusion: That I should not masturbate. Back in Genesis I think it is, that one guy would sleep with the lady and spill his semen on the ground. While I have seen this passage used, it is out of context a lot of times, but I think the idea still holds somewhat. God was displeased with the fact that he wasn't doing honor to his brother by causing his wife to have children. My thinking is, if it makes God mad when someone dishonors their brother in that way, than it makes Him mad as well when we dishonor ourselves in a sexual way. I simply do not see masturbation as at all good and I see it as nothing other than sexual self-gratification, which, ANY self-gratification is idoltry, and we should strive to destroy that idol, not justify it by saying it is "healthy".<br>
While I have followed this series of post with some interest it really is very simple. Ask your self a question. Could I stand before the Throne of God, in front of God himself and do such an act and think not that it was sin? The very thought of this is grotesque. <br><br>While there are no direct verses that deal specifically with masturbation in the Holy text (Gen 38:9 is not about masturbation, but Onan's failure to raise up children to his brother's wife according to the Levirate marriage law: Deut 25:5-6), there are some biblical principles that IMHO apply to this sin. One such principle is found in 1 Cor 6:12. Though all things may be lawful, nothing should become the master of one and enslave him, save Christ.<br><br>Masturbation is an enslaving sin. Many youth are enslaved by this sin. In runs in a cycle with them. First, they begin thinking about sex. Second, they engage in masturbation. Third, the more they engage in masturbation the more depend upon it, thus they desire it more and more, and thus feed upon it more and more. The more they feed upon it the more they are entrapped by it. They are caught up in one vicious cycle.<br><br>There are of course some other verses already mentioned by others: Matt 5:27-28. God not only looks on the outward act of adultery as sin against Him, but also considers the inward thought and consent of the heart to be involved in adultery. It is a heart matter.<br><br>Paul gave us the alternatives: self-control or marriage (1 Cor 7:9). There is no third option. Paul never states that masturbation is a proper relief of sexual burning. Additionally, one’s sexual capacity does NOT exist for one’s self! (1 Cor 7:3-4). God has provided one’s sexuality for the benefit of his lawful partner. Truly it is more blessed to give then to receive—this is not meant jokingly. Self-directed sex constitutes an unlawful use of sexuality. The right’s of one’s body belong to another and not one’s self.
Dear Greg:<br><br>You made the following statement:<br><br>"re: Jerry White<br>I see a number of obvious fallacies in Jerry's reasoning as I believe any good exegete would see. My greatest concern is the imposition of a human/cultural ethic on other people (which appears to be Jerry's goal here) rather than the calling of people to Christ and the formation of Christ in us. This leads to great bondage and, I suspect, has hurt many a young man who struggles in an area which really does not need to be a struggle if thought through and submitted to the Lord."<br><br>I of course respect your right to hold this opinion, but I must disagree. <br><br>I believe masturbation is clearly a sexual act because it involves all of the physiological sensations assoicated with sex. The emission of seminal fluid is a physiological by product of the act which is primarily emotional/sensational/behavioural in nature. There are those in the medical community that disagree with this of course but there are also those that support it. <br><br>Therefore, taken together with the scripture on fornication, or pornia in the greek, and it's differentitation from adultery, auto eroticism is generally considered by most conservative and respected divines to be sex outside of the bonds of God's ordained system. That Paul addresses the issue of "tis better to marry than to burn (with desire)" and he does this in the context of his teaching about marriage vs singleness and he mentions celebacy as a gift, as the alternative, it follows that there is a natural functional drive that most people have, but some do not, because of the gift of celebacy. The Lord addressed the various ways one becomes a "eunich" in another passage which I believe also has application here.<br><br>Your comments about those engaging in masturbation as being free from "bondage" are the most troubling. Having some training in and having done some counseling and being familiar with the literature on sexual deviation and psychological disorders associated with it, I can state that masterbation is invariably assoicated with all deviant behaviour that involves sexual and sexual/criminal behaviour, including pedophilia, coprophilia, exhibitionism, homosexuality, canibalism with concomitant sexual behaviour (ala Jeffey Domer) and so on. Further, the case files of countless Biblical and Christian Counselors are full of men who are overwhelmed with guilt over this act, which guilt, occurred BEFORE they ever heard a word either way about scriptural denunication of it, indicating that that Guilt is a function of the CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, not some man imposed system as you imply.<br><br>May the Lord lead you into a clearer knowledge of the danger and inevitable consequences of engaging in and encouraging this behaviour in others.<br><br>IN HIM,<br><br>Gerry<br>
Gentlemen,<br><br>Looks like I am the one taking the bull by the horns (no metaphor intended). Please be patient while I answer a little at a time.<br><br>Most importantly, please know that I appreciate and respect all of you as brothers in Lord and continue to do so. I hope that my answers bear that spirit – they are intended to do so. <br><br>Kyle<br>The body also reabsorbs unemitted sperm cells.<br>>>True; however, my focus is on the build up of semen in the prostate gland – there is no neat re-absorption there.<br><br> But, I've yet to encounter anything that says that nocturnal emissions simply do not occur in some people<br>>>The other guys can comment but I have probably had two in my 45 year life (despite not having ejaculated for some weeks at a time and being in QUITE great pain)<br><br>and certainly nothing that presents masturbation as a requirement for sexual health for anyone.<br>>>I think honest reflection of experience shows that ejaculation is a requirement regardless of how it is accomplished.<br><br>Please understand that I am not saying that I do not masturbate---I am weak in this area along with many men, but it's none the less something that is not pleasing to God.<br>>>I appreciate your honesty. I think it is not weakness but natural which is why so many men seem to have “trouble” in this area – they are fighting the natural function of their own body. Their body was made by God – therefore, it is acceptable to the Lord. Sadly, the sexually dysfunctional culture of celibacy popularized by the Roman Catholic Church has caused so much bondage for the people of God. I hope to help end it. <br><br>In masturbation you necessarily touch yourself so as to achieve orgasm and emission thereby. How is this anything other than sexual self-gratification? Is it asexual or does it involve another person? Is it not gratifying?<br>>>Kyle et. al. – First, we have to get over the problem of gratification (self or otherwise). Pleasure/self gratification in itself is not evil (God gave us the means to experience it!!). You and I know that we gratify ourselves all the time. We choose the foods we eat, the jobs we do, the clothes we wear to gratify ourselves (well, some guys miss out on the clothes part…) – I will bet each of you has eaten ice-cream or cookies in the last month (probably at church) – what was that behavior? Blatant self gratification! Nothing wrong with pleasuring yourself. God included pleasure centers in many parts of our bodies – enjoy them - BUT don’t abuse them and especially don’t abuse other people with them – that is where sin comes in. I think most of us can easily tell that if we spend hours masturbating every day we are in a VERY wrong place – likewise if I eat ice cream for hours every day or bible reading or praying (vs. taking care of my responsibilities). By the way, I also like to pleasure other people – how? By compliments, by providing emotional support and company and a myriad of other ways (including dancing with women who don’t tend to get a lot of dances – a little ministry of mine). <br><br>Re: Fantasy<br>This is a little more difficult. However, fantasizing is not Lust. Lust means desire (the word has been perverted in our culture to mean sexual reaction or something like that – but that is not what Jesus meant). It is quite easy for one to choose not to desire his neighbor’s wife while masturbating (and not lusting after my neighbor’s wife is very easy!!)<br><br>Kalled<br>"My thinking is, if it makes God mad when someone dishonors their brother in that way, than it makes Him mad as well when we dishonor ourselves in a sexual way."<br>>>You actually argued perfectly against your own conclusion but for some reason you want to hold to it; therefore, this is your personal ethic. If so, you are welcome to do so but please don’t impose it on other people – that is sin. I note you went through a great leap of reasoning in the above statement that is not warranted – in most cases you would not do this but for some reason, in this instance you are doing so. I am not sure why. If you are Kalled (and I sincerely hope you are), you will need to reason much better than this if you are to affect other rational human beings (I am happy to be a sounding board).<br><br>Joe<br>Could I stand before the Throne of God, in front of God himself and do such an act and think not that it was sin? The very thought of this is grotesque.<br><br>Joe, a very simple answer. First, you are right – it does feel a little uncomfortable picturing oneself in this situation – especially with all the angels watching. HOWEVER, if you keep thinking – you will see that EVERY bodily function performed before the throne of God makes us feel quite uncomfortable and feel equally grotesque. But urinating is not sin (unless I missed something somewhere…)). Why? Because these are inappropriate behaviors to be performing before the throne of God. Wrong place! BUT that does NOT make them sin or dishonoring to God! Sex before the throne would make me feel uncomfortable. Yet these are simply normal bodily functions and human behaviors – God made us like this – so really it is something we should be comfortable talking about as natural phenomenon (albeit in an appropriate place like this forum on the subject (not in a Sunday School class of 12 yo girls as example – that would be an inappropriate place).<br><br>Thanks for grasping Gen 38:9.<br><br>Re: Enslaving sin. I don’t believe masturbation needs to be an enslaving sin anymore than eating. You can masturbate/have sex/read the bible to excess or you can engage in these behaviors appropriately.<br><br>Re: Lawful. The very verse you mentioned tells us that all things are lawful. Just don’t be brought into bondage. My point is that masturbation, used by whosoever needs to for physio-psychological release is an appropriate and healthy behavior (those that don’t do so are probably hurt themselves or are not functioning normally). I hate to see people in pain and bondage when they do not need to be in pain and bondage.<br><br>Acts2027<br>“Further, the case files of countless Biblical and Christian Counselors are full of men who are overwhelmed with guilt over this act, which guilt, occurred BEFORE they ever heard a word either way about scriptural denunication of it, indicating that that Guilt is a function of the CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, not some man imposed system as you imply.”<br><br>>>Actually masturbation is literally condemned by our culture – it has nothing to do with scripture. Likewise, many young women have been very guilty and embarrassed about their menstrual cycle starting (even to the point of suicide – how sad!!). Why? Because most adults don’t have the guts to tell the young people the natural functioning of their own bodies (my dad never even told me about sex) – rather these basic functions are sensed as dirty or something to hide and not talk about (except as “off-color” jokes – which simply exacerbates the problems). Thus there is so much confusion in people’s minds. Clearly the menstrual cycle is a marvelous cleansing process that I for one have great respect for. I think masturbation is roughly analogous.<br><br>Re: your comment that all the sexual deviants masturbated and therefore masturbating must be bad is like saying all the heroin addicts drank milk therefore milk causes heroin addiction. There is a name for this logical fallacy but I cannot remember what it is. There are many godly Christian men who masturbate that are NOT deviants by any stretch of the imagination (likewise many non-Christians do so and they are not deviants – in fact, probably every male has masturbated several times in his life and 95 – 98% of males at least are not deviants in these kinds of ways).<br><br>The Answer<br>Take it before the Lord. After all, not our minds and reasoning, but His Spirit is supposed to be our Guide – open to the Lord to allow His Spirit to work in you. Don’t impose your ethic on Him – let Him transform you into the person He wants you to be. If He takes away the need for release – then that takes care of it. You do not have a need to masturbate for release (I leave the pleasure part up to your conscience). If He does not, then do what is necessary to get the release. Simple.<br><br>Agape and Peace in Christ,<br>Greg<br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Please note that I responded to Paul privately since it seemed a little off topic (though not entirely irrelevant).
Although I will not reveal the specific details of your private response to my questions, I must respond publicly--since others are reading these interchanges. Your message, as well as your postings, is very troubling, because while you claim to acknowledge that we need cleansing from the evils of the heart, you seem to hold self--which is the same wicked heart the Word indicts--in very high regard, as though the Holy Spirit were under obligation to preserve all that He finds there, rather than putting it all to death. You are in effect re-writing the indictment--the references to sexual immorality in particular--to accomodate your own violations of it. You are quite happy to bolster your case by claiming a host of co-defendants: [color:blue]"Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)
Beware the leaven of the Pharisees, Greg, for they loved to find ways to justify their inner wickedness by [color:red]redefining God's law, claiming that only violations of explicitly stated cases deserved judgment. You do the same by claiming that since a particular act is not delineated as sin in Scripture, performance of the act is thereby justifiable. By this logic, legions of perverted acts, never delineated, are permissible. Take pornography. The Scripture says: "whoever looks at a woman...", but the Pharisee responds "Oh for goodness' sake! I am not looking at a woman! These are just pixels on a screen, dots on a page! Show me where those are forbidden! Who does it harm, anyway?" They are looking at the God's Holy Law foolishly, externally, with unrepentant, unbelieving hearts: foolishly, because they make their own self the arbiter of God's Law, externally, denying that the word of God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart, unrepentant, refusing to be taught or corrected, unbelieving, justifying their own sin rather than believing that God both commands, and equips unto, holiness.
[color:blue]"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." (Hebrews 13:4)
Hi Paul - no problem in mentioning the email - I just did not want to clutter the topic (I am sensitive about that). Some response.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]you seem to hold self--which is the same wicked heart the Word indicts--in very high regard, as though the Holy Spirit were under obligation to preserve all that He finds there, rather than putting it all to death. "</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>This is a mis understanding of my point. My fundamental point at the end of my last post was EXACTLY to submit oneself to the work of the Holy Spirit and that He would do the necessary crucifixion and glorification (vs. the flesh/human mind/reasoning doing so as I was concerned I saw ample example of). Does this help?<br><br>Also, I think we have to be careful how we use words. I don't necessarily equate "self" with the "wicked heart" though I know a lot of preachers rather easily do so.<br><br>Further, if our heart is only desparately wicked, how could Jesus call us to love God with all of our heart. The answer is that there is more to this than simple semantics and we must get below what I am concerned can be a knee jerk reaction to certain words based on what we have been taught.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]You are in effect re-writing the indictment--the references to sexual immorality in particular--to accomodate your own violations of it. You are quite happy to bolster your case by claiming a host of co-defendants: "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Are you suggesting that people who masturbate deserve death?<br><br>I see the leaven of Pharisees as tying great loads on men's backs and then fail to lift a finger to help them carry them.<br><br>Nevertheless, I think your references to sexual immorality are good. While left specifically undefined, we recognize that such behavior exists. For the most part it is obvious - bestiality, homosexulity, fornication (defined as temple prostitution) and the ICor example of a man lying with his father's wife are good examples. <br><br>More than anything, my focus has been on the heart - opening and submitting it to the Lord - calling others to do so rather than place themselves into bondage to men's perverted ideas of sexual ethics based on their ideals (or, the "wicked heart" that you rightly condem) rather than based on the nature of God and His creation (specifically our bodies in this case). I appeal to the latter in the same way that the creation of God is appealed to throughout scripture as a basis for understanding who God is.<br><br>In Christ,<br>Greg
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]More than anything, my focus has been on the heart - opening and submitting it to the Lord - calling others to do so rather than place themselves into bondage to men's perverted ideas of sexual ethics based on their ideals (or, the "wicked heart" that you rightly condem) rather than based on the nature of God and His creation (specifically our bodies in this case).</font><hr></blockquote><p>But God uses people as well to make His will known.<blockquote>[color:green]But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?</font color=green> Romans 10:14 (ESV)</blockquote>And if God uses men as a means to bring people to Himself in salvation, then can't He also use men as a means to draw people to Himself in other ways? I think that He can and that He does. <br><br>True, our own definitions of stuff has permeated much of what is commonly held to these days, but that is not always necessarily a bad thing. I see no problem with holding people to a standard of holiness that goes beyond what the world considers being holy. Afterall, God does command us to be holy as He is holy.
Thanks Kalled<br><br>Sorry my statement you quoted was poorly written - I tried to edit it but time had expired.<br><br>I have no problem with God using any aspect of the creation to make His will known - men included. However, fundamentally we are individually called to submit to the Lord who creates Christ within us - this is where we will find the fullness of His will - in the becoming process (IICor 3:18 is kind of my foundational life verse though many verses exclaim the same reality). I think this forum is an excellent means for us to review our thinking - I find that expressing my thoughts and examining my heart via statements and responses and listening to how others understand/react to them is very helpful. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]True, our own definitions of stuff has permeated much of what is commonly held to these days, but that is not always necessarily a bad thing.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I would be very careful about letting my definitions determine anything about God or ethics (unless I clearly noted that it was a personal definition and something that was a work in process). I would be even more careful about creating an ethic or Theology that asserts itself towards others based on my definition. Again, this tends to idolatry.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I see no problem with holding people to a standard of holiness that goes beyond what the world considers being holy. Afterall, God does command us to be holy as He is holy.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Agreed - the world is definitely NOT my standard (that is why I tend to abhor our government - both State and Federal (US) (the greatest manifestation of the world I know of). <br><br>What we don't want to do is to hold people to a standard that is not from above - this is Phariseism (sp?) and Jesus condemned it and called it bondage.<br><br>The best route to Holiness is to keep oneself full open to the work of the Spirit to fashion Christ in us - we will simply not have an interest in that which is unhealthy/sin and will have a positive compassion to that experience unto which we are called to. I don't have to decide to agape people - I find the reality of that in me (this is something to do with the Spirit for sure - though I have met non-Christians who have good relational skills/ethics so the matter can be a little complex).<br><br>Interesting thought: I have alcohol in the house but I have not one wit of interest in drinking it (most of it is not mine). Of course, this example may be unfair because I don't personally like the taste or the effect - so this may be my personal inclination rather than something wrought of the Spirit - certainly no righteousness there!!!!<br><br>Greg<br><br><br><br><br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I would be very careful about letting my definitions determine anything about God or ethics (unless I clearly noted that it was a personal definition and something that was a work in process). I would be even more careful about creating an ethic or Theology that asserts itself towards others based on my definition. Again, this tends to idolatry.</font><hr></blockquote><p>I agree. It just seems like a lot of times, instead of coming to a deffinition of something, we just assume something is right because the Bible doesn't condemn it. And this is where our personal deffinitions come to play. The Puritans had the regulative principle, as do some groups today. I don't know much about it, but I believe that the principle permeated all of life. If it wasn't in the Bible, they didn't do it just to be safe. I think we should apply that to masturbation as well. <br>
